Complaints

The complaint text that is displayed might not represent all complaints filed with BBB. Some consumers may elect to not publish the details of their complaints, some complaints may not meet BBB's standards for publication, or BBB may display a portion of complaints when a high volume is received for a particular business.

• Initial Complaint

  Date:14/09/2022

  Type:Billing Issues
  Status:

  ResolvedMore info

  Complaint statuses

  Resolved:

  The complainant verified the issue was resolved to their satisfaction.

  Unresolved:

  The business responded to the dispute but failed to make a good faith effort to resolve it.

  Answered:

  The business addressed the issues within the complaint, but the consumer either a) did not accept the response, OR b) did not notify BBB as to their satisfaction.

  Unanswered:

  The business failed to respond to the dispute.

  Unpursuable:

  BBB is unable to locate the business.

  On August 16, 2022, a K&S Electronic & Security C4 technician came into our home for approximately 5 hours to set up our Control 4 system. I received a bill from K&S for $683.51. We have a credit of $123.20 that we prepaid. The outstanding balance is $560.31. The company advised us by email, they would send out a C4 tech and charge for time on site at $110 per hour, minimum one hour, taxes extra for HC250 setup. The company also advised "If you’re considering upgrading the controller and expanding the project, let us know and we can discuss options with you." We feel this company has billed us unfairly. They advised they would bill us after completion of work. The work was never completed. During subsequent email communication with the company we were told the system was old and could not be properly installed without more money. We feel this company is not keeping open communication with us. This company continues to not answer our questions or make any attempt to solving the issue amicably with us. The C4 Tech appeared inexperienced and overmatched by the work requested and was unable to answer any of our questions. K&S stated the installer was very experienced. We feel an experienced installer *** * ****** company should have communicated with us/given us a quote within the first hour regarding what timeframe/cost we should expect. We feel as the customer we should make the decision to proceed.. K&S has emailed us "Control 4 works similar to a cell phone once it hits a certain limit it can no longer upgrade software". Then why do the work and bill the customer? We had no idea on how to use the product and were relying K&S to be professional. For us this is not a money issue but a professional one. When we have a trades worker in our house we feel they should communicate with us as to the problem and projected cost. This gives us the choice to proceed. This did not happen. K&S made the choice, left us out, and billed us for uncompleted work.

  Business Response

  Date: 14/09/2022

  Prior to our appointment our project manager informed the client that his processor was 2 to 3 models behind and if they were interested in upgrading we could provide a quote prior to our appointment. The client was adamant on trying to get the HC250 working that was left behind by a previous owner and sat unplugged for 2 years. When Kyle attended the site he had to completely redo the main floor system. He mentioned the system was unplugged for 2 years. I would like to point out the client was on site the entire time with Kyle. Once Kyle got the HC250 back up and running there were some issues with the customer supplied unit. With the help of Control 4 tech support Kyle was able to get most of the issues rectified but unfortunately there were still some issues with the customer supplied HC250. The customer was aware of our hourly rates and has made mentioned that we informed him we would charge per hour on site. "they would send out a C4 tech and charge for time on site at $110 per hour, minimum one hour, taxes extra" 

  I mentioned we could attend the site to check out the network system to see if there is any issues that may be bringing down the system but the client refuses to pay for our services. They wanted a deal on labor which I kindly replied we are unable to do and they were aware of our rates prior to our appointment. The c4 tech works on large home automation projects daily. He has 25+ years experience in the industry and we are pinnacle dealer for Control 4. Unfortunately we were unable to know the state of the customer supplied equipment prior to attending the site.  This was a service request not a new installation so we were unable to give an accurate quote on time and or parts. This is why from the beginning we made the client aware of our hourly rate and that time on site would be billed. The client has also indicated the same in his complaint. 

  Customer Answer

  Date: 15/09/2022

  
  Complaint: ********

  We are rejecting the K & S Electronic and Security response because they are not being professional, have not kept open communication, will not answer our questions and appear to lack interest in solving the issue amicably.  It is not fair for us to have to pay them $110 per hour for five hours of work for a system they were unable to fix.  Why were they not able to give us a no obligation quote as per their website?

  On August 3, the project manager emailed us,  "Looks like we installed the Control4 controller (HC250) back in 2014. The project manager noted "this controller is 2 generations ago and has been replaced by the EA1 which has now been replaced by the Core1, which just came out in the last couple of months."  The Project Manager asked us when we last used the system and advised us "If you’re considering upgrading the controller and expanding the project, let us know and we can discuss options with you.".  On August 3, we advised via email we never used the system and bought the house two years ago and wanted to book a appointment.  We booked an appointment for August 16 and paid the $123.20 deposit on August 5.

  Contrary to what the company has advised, we were never given the option of getting a quote. We didn't use the system x 2 years due to the pandemic. We are both critical care workers who were relying on this company to be professional and thought the appointment was for a quote and to discuss how best to get our Control4 system working again. The "customer supplied unit" was originally installed by K&S Electronic and Security in 2014 and was working for the previous owners of ** ******* ***** *****

  On August 16, the C4 technician powered up the system and noted that it "fired right up" and was working. During the five hours on site we continued to ask the C4 tech his rationale regarding what he was doing and his response was he had to do a system upgrade.   We are unsure what is meant by " When Kyle attended the site he had to completely redo the main floor system." It appeared he spend 5 hours on his laptop computer.  Most of our questions were met with minimal responses.  He also indicated it has been a few years since he worked on a system like this and was continuing to have problems. Prior to leaving our home, the C4 tech advised that he would look into why the system was not working and get back to us.

  We received no further communication from the company until the invoice dated August 16 came in the mail.  Via email we told the company we felt the invoice we received was unfair and we had been taken advantage of.  We asked the company if almost 700 dollars is a normal charge for a Control 4 system that only plays five local Winnipeg radio stations and does not  'integrating everything from lighting, music, video, climate control, security—even smartphones and tablets" which is what the K&S website states.  We indicated we are willing to pay, however we are requesting a more reasonable bill for their services.   The company continues to advise we owe them for 5 hours of work at $110 per hour. 

  The company also advised us via email "If you're not willing to pay for his time we are not willing to proceed" and told us "we could cap your next appointment at one hour if you prefer."  Why was this "cap the appointment at one hour" option not available to us originally.  If the company communicated with us we could have made an informed decision regarding how best to proceed.  Instead we are left with a minimally functioning Control 4 system and a $683.51 bill.  We do not want this ************ company back in our home. 

  On Sept 15, 2022 we received email and verbal correspondence from the Sr. Manager of Customer Advocacy from Control4. (Contact information available upon request). We were advised a normal system reboot should take approximately 30 minutes and 99 percent of the time the system should just turn on. The manager did note that sometimes a C4 tech can "go down a rabbit hole" when attempting to fix the system, however, noted communication with the customer in a timely manner is an integral part of the process.  From talking to the Control4 manager we got the impression that after 2-3 hours in our home a professional C4 tech should be able to determine if there are system issues and advise us according.  After talking to the manager we are left wondering if five hours of labor charges is acceptable and if a quote to proceed with service should have been made sooner.  We are left questioning the integrity of this company.  The manager notes the system was working on the Control4 side and could not understand why we only had five local radio stations.  We advised our high speed internet works and we can play music on our Alexa and Google Mini. The manager was at a loss to understand why the C4 tech wrote "issues with loading app on local network and streaming Tune ln radio stations.  Most aren't working. Thinking it must be network related didn't have time to look into it" after spending five hours in our home.  The manager advised us there are other C4 reputable dealers in Winnipeg.  He is willing to contact them on our behalf and work with us if we chose.

  A professional company with Control 4 "Pinnacle Dealer" Status should have quoted us instead of making false claims that they did. 

  A professional C4 tech with 25 years of experience should have told us fixing our "old" HC250 controller could potentially take longer and could potentially cost multiple hours in labor costs (while on site) - and asked us, do you want me to proceed?  Instead the C4 tech made the decision to spend five hours in our home troubleshooting a system that he was not able to fix.  The company then chose to bill us for uncompleted work.  As previously stated, is it fair for us to have to pay them $110 per hour for five hours for uncompleted work.

  Please advise us of our options.
  
  
  
  Sincerely,
  
  Mark and Leanne ******

  Business Response

  Date: 16/09/2022

  Sorry there is mention the system works but only plays a few radio stations then mention that you're paying for service on a system that isn't  working? Please indicate if the system is working or not. 

  Can Control 4 operate lighting and locks etc. Absolutely if you have those devices are on your system. 

  We do quotes for new jobs as I have previously indicated this was a service call on customer supplied equipment not a consultation. 

  Yes normal rebooting of the system should turn on the system within an hour. However, your system was corrupted and needed additional attention as indicated previously. 

  We haven't ever had to "cap" a service call for clients. We will consider this in the future. Thank you for your input. 

  Please let us know what you would like to do at this point or what you're prepared to pay and we can discuss further. I feel our terms were clearly indicated from the beginning of this appointment and we were told you wanted to get your existing equipment running and were not considering upgrading. We did what was asked of and performed the work required to get your system running. 

   

  Customer Answer

  Date: 19/09/2022

  
  Complaint: ********
  
  On September 16, 2022, your company advised "we were told you wanted to get your existing equipment running and were not considering upgrading".   Who told you this?   We asked the C4 tech about upgrading.  We asked about the cost of upgrading in multiple emails. ** **** ***** *** *** ***** ************** *** **** ****** ** ** *** **** ********
  On September 16, 2022, your company asked us ""Please indicate if the system is working or not?  As previously indicated, no, we do not believe we have a working Control4 system. Does K&S Electronic and Security consider a Control4 system that plays approximately five radio stations as working?
  
  Respectively, we first attempted to communicate with your company to seek resolution and was told we owe $683.51 because you invoice by the hour regardless of the outcome. How do we verify that your C4 tech actually did anything during the five hours in our home. Perhaps the system turned on within 30 minutes and we had approximately five radio stations from the start.  How do we know this is not the case? 
  
  After talking to the Control 4 Sr. Manager of Customer Advocacy we got the impression that a professional C4 tech should be able to determine if there are system issues and advise the customer according within a 2-hour timeframe.  We are willing to pay 2 hours of labor and parts as follows:
  Provo Fiber Optic Digital Audio Cable - 2M $22.48 plus 12% tax = $25.18
  IR Emitter with optical feedback - $37.80 plus 12% tax = $42.34
  Installation Labour x 2 hours - $220.00 plus 12% tax = $246.40
  Total $313.92 - 123.20 (payment/credits) = Balance Due: $190.72
  
  In future we strongly recommend you treat the first pre-paid hour as an assessment and then communicate with the customer.  Per your email your C4 tech is one of the owners of K&S Electronics, has over 25 years' experience in the industry and would know more than anyone in the city.  We expected more professionalism and communication from a person with this level of experience. *** ********** *** ******** *** **** *** **** ************** ******* *** ****** *** **** ************ Please advise how you wish to resolve this matter.
  

  Business Response

  Date: 20/09/2022

  We will accept your offer of $190.72 so we can resolve this matter. 

   

  Customer Answer

  Date: 20/09/2022

  
  Better Business Bureau:
  
  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ******** and find that this resolution is satisfactory to me.

  I will send a check for $190.72 to:
  K&S Electronics & Security
  **** ** *** ****** ****** ********* ** *** *** 

  Mark ******